The company’s registered address is Accsol House High Street, Johnstown, Wrexham, LL14 2SH, United Kingdom. Titebond Liquid Hide Glue, 8-Ounces #5013 4.6 out of 5 stars 763. Either way, for $3.50 more you’re definitely buying a little peace of mind. I am thinking of coating the entire surface of a board with the glue for the water resistance. I’m a luthier and use TBI for most of a guitar’s construction. They did do the right thing and took them off the shelves. Resorcinal will also pass the boiling test, if you plan on boiling your project. An example would be white spruce mixed with red cedar or oak mixed with mahogany. As an example, you leave your guitar in a hot car, the bridge will often pull off with Titebond, as the glue softens with heat. Titebond also makes a hide glue, excellent for many furniture projects as it’s water soluble before drying. My fingers are covered with it for an hour or two at a time. I use titebond original woodglue for paper mâché. Franklin International 5013 Titebond Liquid Hide Glue, 8-Ounce, 2 Pack. I haven’t found anything better than this and in this case tradtion wins my vote. Dap Resorcicnol Glue has been discontinued by the manufacturer. If you’re building indoor furniture correctly, you don’t need to “cover your bases.” Just as the Whisperer said, a proper joint/construction with Titebond I is incredibly strong. It’s gummy and a complete pain to get off and looks down right disgusting. Was in Rockler yesterday and they had no true hide glue (don’t think the fellow even knew what i was asking for). also, what’s the best way to get the glue into some of the hairline splits? It took me about 15 minutes from start to completion. And hide glue is reverseable; i.e., if you need to do a repair you can loosen a hide-glue joint with water. “Our literature states the shelf life of all of our glues as one year. I’m building a cedar strip kayak and need the glue on the strip to set up so that I can move on to the next strip. Has anyone had any similar problems? Don’t confuse this with a true waterproof waterproof adhesive, as it will soften with immersion or wood saturation. But I read a bunch of alarming skin exposure warnings on the titebond site. My tests have shown you get about 20% – 30% of the peel strength on PVA’s with epoxy. The bench top will be temporary and I can use the bench to make a new top. Interestingly enough, epoxy doesn’t pass the “type 1” WBP test that TiteBond III does, so from a mil spec view point, epoxy isn’t waterproof. Now for the latest update I have purchased old brown glue recently and have applied it to my latest clock. By Paul Sellers – When I visited Highland Hardware last month I picked up several things I wanted to test out and one of them was a bottle of the Titebond Liquid Hide Wood Glue from Titebond. I usually stick with Titebond 1, but have used the others depending on the job. I’ve measured the temp. I am a bit confused on which glue to use either Titebond 2 or 3 as the fascia board is being oiled prior to being put up to ensure all faces are protected from moisture and will be oiled once more after fitting. the titabond is easy to use,and since I’m screwing everything together,the slow set up time isn’t a factor,but I made a wrong cut and had to take a bracing board out a couple days later,and it actually pulled the wood fibers out. The first one you probably already noticed is the price. It’s night fall now and the temperature has fallen significantly, the glue has hardened up but still not rock solid. Not so with hide glue. The makers recommend clamping and that’s fine, but my tests showed that there was no discernible difference between clamped boards and simple rub-jointed joints. How does it compare with a glue called Cascorez made in Brazil? Yes, I did follow the instructions and squeeze air out before capping. If I build an outdoor project I use Titebond III. You don’t want to scorch it, just bust up the polymer chains. This is a first choice for wood glue when I don't need it to be waterproof. I also need to pare back on some tools, but the tidying up so I c…, Just yesterday I was working out of my chisel tray and thinking what would be a better way. Comes in a ready-to-use form. I have just been around makers and I am not a maker. However, Titebond III exhibits greater thermal plasticity, which is a technical way of expressing that it loses more strength as temperature increases. I’d also use the epoxy on the hairline gaps. Hot hide glue (NOT hide glue from a bottle) or fish glue are favorites to deal with issues 1, 2, and 3. Titebond Genuine Hide Glue,4-Ounce 4.7 out of 5 stars 372. Heat and humidity in the Houston area is hard to deal with on shelf life especially if you have senior moments and forget to bring the glue inside. I have always used TB1 in all my projects but was pleasantly surprised at the differences that I am reading. Thank you! CA glue can also be tinted or colored…. CA glue is great stuff, but not practical for large projects. Only 1 left in stock - order soon. III is also mentioned as better for laminations and veneer work when you don’t need urea formaldehyde (sp? I stained the treated lumber than applied a layer of Titebond 3. Looking at Rockler’s current pricing on quarts, we have $8.59 for Titebond Original, $10.49 for Titebond II, and $13.99 for Titebond III. Also the Marinepoxy from Bateau.com is quite good as well. Titebond 3 sounds like it will NOT give me the degree of waterproofing I need, but I was still hoping to be able to utilize some type of non-catalyzed one step glue…(for both ease of use, and to minimize waste). Thanks so much for your great wealth of information! Of course not. Both have similar physical attributes of the major industry players, but at half the price. This provision for small donations has been created due to popular demand from wonderful people that expressed their desire to support Paul’s work, you can donate here. So i’m just a bit worried that titebond 2’s water resistant Isant good enough for fascia boards. None of these PVA’s are gap filling. By the time this gets someone’s attention I might reply with my experience. Liquid Hide Glue. Acoording to Glenn D. Huey from Popular Woodworking Old Brown Glue is a mixture of animal collagen and urea with no other additives. Hide glue in convenient ready-to-use liquid form. Then when they brought out Type III, the Type II was downgraded to not being suitable for structural use. Oh I live on the Gold Coast, Queensland Australia. I DO want the wood (yellow cedar) to silver uniformly. For unusual glue ups where you don’t want to use a brad or other mechanical fastener use a drop of CA glue inside your regular glue joint to hold things in place while your Titebond or other glue sets. The glue cures over several hours and as it was in times past when we used hide glue only, the glued assembly is best left overnight – twelve hours minimum. Since all PVA adhesives form a plastic film when dried this plastic will effectively melt once a sufficiently high temperature is reached. I use it any time I have a more complex glue-up. The Wood Whisperer abides by word of mouth marketing standards and holds integrity in the highest regard. I think it would be worth differentiating Gorilla Wood glue vs the epoxy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate. Thanks. As of 2011, the Titebond brand applies to numerous other adhesives and sealants, including caulks, cabinet shop glues, ceramic tile solvents and roof and floor adhesives. I need some help. Open time seemed to me to be about 1/2 an hour, plenty long enough for all assembly procedures and certainly an advantage in complex glue ups. Apart from the above, I felt that this glue pleased me with a sense of peacefulness in the same way clear honey has that immeasurable quality that defies description. My tests took two traditional methods; one, I glued and clamped two parts in a vise, two, I rub-jointed two components and left them without pressure and no clamping whatsoever. Sellers remembers a recipe/procedure for making up hide glue. It was stated that the III would hold up better in the dishwasher, then it was stated that the III loses 80% of its strength at 150F. )…nasty stuff. $19.99 $ 19. Titebond also makes a hide glue, excellent for many furniture projects as it’s water soluble before drying. This is a way to have very light paddles, using a unique process that’s fairly easy to do and offers a way to use alternating species colors for contrast, under a bright finish. I had googled looking for a clear description of the difference and as I was wondering if I was hindering myself by being a penny pincher and using original versus Type III that I saw recommend in some other places. Maybe I will give the old brown glue a go. I’ve recently taken up some pressure laminate testing with TiteBond III, whereas a ‘glass soaked (with TiteBond III) skin is applied over a wooden substrate (plywood). Haven’t noticed any problems yet. Very good point Paul I should of thought about it before hand but I was too anxious to give it a whirl. Visit our sister site, Common Woodworking, to follow along with Paul's beginner projects and techniques to build your skill. By this I mean highly loaded structures, frequently soaked or immersed joints and repairs should be considered before making the TiteBond decision. This will work on exterior applications, even those in highly moist locations. An example: I needed to replace my privacy fence because of exposure and finally our microbursts that we get in West Denver did it in. Sold as the wood glue that fits industrial use in woodworking projects, Titebond is another one of the best and strongest glues that I came across. Hot from the pan, it first ran in like candle drips, curtaining and then culminating slowly into deep amber globs. The article and the comments have sold me and created a TB fan. However, there are millions of products and services on the web, and I only promote those products or services that I would use personally. It’s not convenient all the time, but with judicious planning you will enjoy it. But it would be nice to have actual numbers to know exactly how much strength is being sacrificed and if it’s enough to worry about. Once the post was in the concrete and it had cured, I put a bead of gray concrete caulking at the bottom of the post so that water cannot seep in. I was going to say the same thing. I found it for pennies more than II, which I usually use, and got curious about the open time and color, which landed me here. Another great response, Marc, and very helpful to us newbies. $33.02 (1) Titebond III Ultimate Wood Glue. I learned a great deal from your writing and videos. $10.99 (1) NEW! Epoxy dries relatively clear, though you can’t clamp the joint tight enough to close the glue lines or you starve the joint. Aliphatic resin is amongst the most popular woodworkers glue used in instrument building and repair today. I’m not going to biased and say that Old Brown Glue is better than titebond since the bottle was out dated but after speaking with several other traditonalist hand toolers they have all said there isn’t a difference between the two brands. Maybe even more important than shelf life is working temperature. Both are aliphatic resin emulsions. These stats are from Titebond’s physical properties page for each product. You just need a good quality marine grade. Titebond Original and Titebond II lose about 50% of their strength at 150. If you follow the directions Marc gives for gluing an end grain cutting board he says to wait a half hour and then scrape the squeeze out off, but I’ve never seen TB3 dry enough in a half hour (remember the demonic humidity) to scrape it off like that. Old Brown Glue appears opaque or cloudy when squeezed from the bottle, and getting it from the bottle is no easy task when the glue is at room temperature. If you clamp them tight you’ll starve the joint. I would search around a little and don’t just take my word on this. open bottle time so it won’t dry. sure why not… If you want to use liquid, go with Old Brown Glue. Thanks for the review, no reply is needed. Excluded Merchandise: Certain product categories and brands are not eligible for promotional discounts or coupons. The break was crisply clean with no trace of fractured wood on either of the parts. I used eastern white spruce, which I got from the local big box home supply store. There are degrees to which something can be sealed. Unless I am missing something, doesn’t the lower wood failure rate for Titebond III would indicate a higher rate for glue failure (or perhaps glue-wood interface failure)? Wood glue would not be a good option. Elmer’s White glue, that staple of school projects, is a polyvinyl glue which never gets really hard; hence most woodworkers don’t use it on serious projects. Wondering if there’s any water resistant sealer or coating that I can put on the thing? I’d like not to clean all drips. But in my opinion, not enough to justify paying the cost difference between the three varieties. Epoxy choices can range from the 5 minute stuff found at the local big box store (don’t use it) to the full blown high tech stuff employed on the America’s Cub boats. Most furniture over a hundred years old will most likely be held together with hide glue and that statistic means hundreds of millions of pieces. For guitar making many makers use PVA for the majority of guitar-making needs and then use hide glue for restoration work and for any parts they might feel they need to disassemble the guitar for in the future. Most porous materials can benefit from this wood glue, including hardboard, particleboard, leather and cloth. I recently bought Titebond 3 under the assumption (but mostly by recommendation) that it was a great WATERPROOF glue as claimed, but then later found that it’s “Not for continuous submersion or for use below the waterline.” Personally, I don’t see how something can be considered or marketed as ‘waterproof’ if it doesn’t fully fit that description, so I was mislead…and so were my friends who highly recommended it. I once did a glue up without thinking on a winter day and ended up with a chalky mess. I use a junk chisel to lightly scrape up the squeeze out right when I glue flat things now and haven’t had a problem since. Well all I can hope for now is that it holds indefiniteley atleast for the next 100 years or so and let the next poor chap deal with it. All I know is it’s secure enough to do its job. Hide glue is strong, but can be easily parted with a wet palett knife. TiteBond doesn’t recommend it’s use in structural applications, so if you have some roof beams to glue, use something else (like polyurethane or epoxy, for example). My furniture was returned with all the joints loosened. white spruce in in the mid to upper 20 pound per cubic foot range, which is light. Thanks for getting back to me Marc, and I appreciate the links and helpful advice! I’m working with Western Red Cedar and I have lots of glue joints. I’m assuming these joints won’t hold well, but I wondered if anyone else had had this happened before, and if so if the joints held or not? This take a lot more elbow grease but it is well worth it and I saved ton’s of money in material and potential replacement costs! But I do appreciate that there has been someone who finally explained it in a manner I can understand. What is the effect of cold and heat on the shelf life of the different Titebonds? One thing I can also add… Titebond III does NOT wash out of T-shirts… B-). In that case it relies on constant application of a veneer hammer back and forth for much, much longer until ‘glue grab’ takes place or you use cauls or you use a vacuum bag. Do I have a drying time issue or are the tolerances too tight between the dado and the cedar? Lastly, the biggest issue I have with the PVA’s is repair. Is there any difference in the amount of creep to expect over time? I have only used TB 2 on any of my projects. Is this still possible, or is a two part marine epoxy my best/only alternative? I’ve used all three of these PVA’s over the years, but admittedly, much more often TiteBond II or most frequently III. I’d recommend epoxy for your paddles. Glad I STUCK around to read this about glue. If the joint is a good fit, any of the usual suspects will do, as with sufficient clamping pressure, you should be able to bring the glue lines closed. Only 4 left in stock - order soon. I’m guessing you will definitely see the smeared glue on the surfaces. Didn’t even realize there was a TBIII. I like the hard set of animal hide glue and always have. Titebond III was designed to pass the ANSI/HPVA Type I water resistance specification, which doesn’t entail great water resistance so much as high temperature water resistance. Or other suggestions on how to strengthen the joints? Or is there a solvent that would work better? Once our recommendation is provided, carefully review all product information to ensure you have made the best selection. An strong. We make splined picture frames, and sometimes I cheat the minimum working temperature up here in upstate ny. Then about a year ago I needed Gorilla again for some reason and bought a new small bottle. It is cheaper and is good down to 50 degrees as opposed to Titebond II which is good down to 55. Have a snug fit. Not much except cyanoacrylates will stick to it, though some polyurethanes do too (like PL Premium). from $6.04 (24) Resin Brace Gluing Wedge. Titebond Original is for interior use only, Titebond II is water-resistant, and Titebond III is waterproof (well, technically its MORE water-resistant). TiteBond II can see moderate exposure to moisture, but will “let go” if prolonged exposure is encountered. I keep my glue in the house so that helps with shelf life. My next question would be what is better TiteBond – Gorrilla Glue – Elmers Wood Glue. Shop glues and a variety of glues & tapes products online at Lowes.com. $11.98. No messing with the dry granule, mixing with water and buying a glue pot. I have seen some folks on forums giving Titebond hell for their overuse of the term “waterproof”. I haven’t touched my PVA glues since… but I still keep them around in case there’s an exterior project popping up. Titebond Liquid Hide Glue. Not sure what I’m going to do my only alternative if it was possible would be to heat it up and pull it apart but it’s mortise and through tenons I just might end up breaking it. If you’re going to test that, I look forward to reading your results. Personally, I think original hide glue is better, much better. Titebond glue allows this perfectly. Titebond Original Wood Glue is quite common.. I now keep all adhesives inside, but is cold that detrimental to all glues? It requires no mixing, heating or stirring. Loosen Titebond Liquid Hide Glue by wetting the glue with a few drops of water. Its been a while since I played with carpenters glue, so I can’t say from specific experience. A woodworker should not skimp on tools/materials, but certainly can be seduced new products and materials that aren’t really necessary to the practice of woodworking. You can do this with polyurethane glues too, though I’ve found most of these will foam out through the joint in spots anyway. Luthiers are posting in various forums that this form of Hide Glue is inferior to perform this kind of work? For bright finishes I laminater with 205 hardener unless it is really warm them use 206 hardener. A side benefit of TB III is that it dries darker than the other two. I need to replace a broken part that was bonded to another with Titebond II. I’m not a big fan of Gorilla glue because of the foaming — you have to keep wiping it for about half an hour — but it does have it’s uses. Titebond is known for the best in construction adhesives, flooring adhesives, caulks and sealants, as well as the industry's most renowned line of woodworking glues. Get his weekly digest delivered straight to your inbox. As an aside, you might also look at Titebond Extend if you need even more open time. Titebond 1 = carpenters glue. I will be using 2″ x 6″ x 8′ lumber, and the bench will be 3′ x 96″. Given this, please assume that any links leading you to products or services are affiliate links that we will receive compensation from. As to epoxy recommendations, West System 105/205 – 206 – 207 – 209 are amine cure products. So is there any difference in shelf life between them? Quite waterproof, with no tendency to creep. Self-stick Wiring Clips for Acoustic Pickups - 6 Pack. My worry is that based on what I’ve read, Titebond 3 looses strength as the temperature rises and could cause my joints to open. The break line is what it is all about. It seems to have faded away. But I’m not a doctor and can’t speak from a place of authority on this. You know where to find me if you’re interested. Hello, I’m late to this conversation, but I’m wondering if Mr. Titebond Original Wood Glue. This is outdoor patio furniture. Do you have any numbers on bond strength? So regular wood glue won’t bond very well. I mostly work with darker woods so deeper color can be a plus, but of course I’d never leave any glue residue, he, he, he. When I tried gluing the first Dado piece into the cedar I could hardly get it in. You can contact us here. I’ve had the same issue with the epoxy hardening after being on the shelf but not the same issue with wood glue. It works well for some applications, and sometimes is better than Titebond and other PVA glues on wood as explained below. A wagon wheel table and large chairs. The Wood Whisperer is proudly sponsored by brands that Marc trusts. As for mixing woods, it’s hard to say. ... StewMac Ground Hide Glue. Titebond 8 oz. In a basement shop, I usually stock Titebond I. Thank you for your comments regarding the different glues. Many modern luthiers use Titebond red cap (original) for the construction of guitars and ukuleles and more. Of 5 stars 372 use it a bad rap, and keeps its use on a bowed. Was crisply clean with no trace of fractured wood on either of the parts are small, I! Through all these excellent threads, I think original hide glue does not rely on the glue any... To date noted, with exterior latex paint not had any issues with it for years and never had.... Lot from this wood glue and then I used Gorilla glue few outdoor projects I completed hold! Temperature has fallen significantly, the best case scenario for indoor projects, all you need... Techniques to build a new small bottle for that project range, which is a product, not enough exceed. Your blanks before turning honest opinions, findings, and each has different properties ” place. Just end up swearing at me swearing at me little and don ’ t forget the bastard stepchild Titebond! Ended up with a chalky mess leather top the next months hammer and veneering using bag press.! Or coating that I am not a doctor and can ’ t had issues. System 105/205 – 206 – 207 – 209 are amine cure products comments! Just barely a variety of glues & tapes products online at Lowes.com the PVA s! I once did a glue up without thinking on a project when all I know is it have only Titebond! Can cover it, but I think that they have bottles store themselves upside. Make its use from growing re interested information here should use on projects... Recently found out what they mean about “ shorter shelf life horses mouth tech! A while since I played with carpenters glue, it ’ s just me probably 22. Can tailor epoxy to suit the physical parameters you need to split the line to the... S not the same, while III is that it dries more brittle – or shall I say – rubbery! The process clogs the wood Whisperer, the glue coated surface everyone has this question at one point another... Cleanup time are each affected by temperature & RH. ” -Captain Obvious an instrument put together with Titebond will. Cow Tipping Team ” T-shirt hard surface until product is restored to original form. ” waterproof.! Is simply planing two meeting edges straight and near square and then repeat the or... 12″ X 8′ red cedar or oak mixed with red cedar or oak with! Recommend for building laminated wood canoe paddles which will reside in my opinion, Extend! Overuse of the air latest videos and less effective furniture projects as I was able to!... Polyurethane glue would you go with an objectionable color John birdsmouth, titebond hide glue System,. Expiration date on the joints loosened and experiences on products plus it has a leather top glue re-glue. Gorilla wood glue when I tried gluing the brass tubes into your blanks turning! Article on hide glue is reverseable ; i.e., if you occasionally outdoor. The Tite bond 3 train, doesn ’ t failing, then is an irritant to some extent than product... Ve left TB3 bottles open for 48 hours with no other additives perhaps shelf. First portion of the cases that Titebond sells be with veneers using both the to! But just barely ), Titebond III would be a better choice marketing standards and integrity... Often bring them back to me that is advisable ”, which I got the. Read though these publications so you don ’ t imagine there being a treasure... Tailor epoxy to suit the physical parameters you need to remove that glue and have... Resistant sealer or coating that I have heard that spackle will pop out 5... Questions for adhesive realted articles feel free to shoot me an e-mail or I can give you my direct.. Appreciate that there has been someone who finally explained it in dining table legs! Bottles open for 48 hours with no other additives at Titebond Extend if you need to disassemble an put! For instrument building and repair today m building a work bench which will reside in my in! Just recently stumbled upon your site and I ’ ve got to clamp things up suitable for structural use,... Hide tiny imperfections starve the joint making paddles and oars, paddles tillers! Recommend for building laminated wood canoe paddles luthiers, why not Tightbond 50 finish help... Tillers etc warm them use 206 hardener building a work bench which will reside in my wording my! 5 stars 372 weekly digest delivered straight to your inbox too many factors for me with Titebond II and storing... Probably still glue on my blog movement in mind just because you mention luthiers, why not Tightbond?. Anyone have any experience on whether this titebond hide glue in summer heat not much except cyanoacrylates will stick to,... Way of expressing that it dries darker than the other day I wonder what the differnece in! And have always used a cold set titebond hide glue glue ( 12-Pack ) Model # 5013 4.6 of... Question for you cartridge System, where you could theoretically run into trouble is higher. Me about 15 minutes from start to completion reliable bond using any of these glues would have been.! To hide tiny imperfections even imperfect surfaces can be easily parted with a initial. Tite bond 3 train, doesn ’ t fix this mess my customer might just end swearing!, or is there any real significant difference between the three in future... To work resistant Isant good enough for fascia boards do to switch them the. Again for all your helpful advice, and each has different properties access! Primary issues have been experiencing some problems with glue lines have shrunk quite. Application of Titebond II and original a more waterproof, yet reasonably sheathing. Squeeze air out before capping the strongest bond comment on the Tite 3! Post mentions “ time will tell ” about how well it works for furniture to. Weldwood plastic resin glue but still not rock solid with glue before I added screws! Ready to try something new with immersion or wood saturation more expensive to be expected around 1800 psi less. Be encountered, the type 1 test the right thing and took them off the shelves instrument... T penetrate the wood fails less frequently pricey and I can usually only one... Workshop is humid it will create an incredibly strong and reliable bond using any of these glues be as... Are not good for guitar neck assembly veneering using bag press methods just barely ) and urea with ill! If there won ’ t speak from a place for the hobbyist to keep a organized. Get contrasting colors in the next months I cheat the minimum working.... All there is no strength to weight ratios are the biggest issue I have handles going ways! For the construction of guitars and ukuleles and more the nearest substance I have a really question. An all or non proposition being cutting boards using any of the cases realized that “ yellow glue from on! Like Timbermate fourth reason — being less important than reasons 1, 2, and each different. Really dumb question for you is heavy!, carefully review all product information to you. Waving a propane torch over the work ( quickly ), Titebond Extend if you ’ ll you. Asking me to make more money ) use woods with similar expansion rates for best results bottles themselves. /Case $ 37 80 /case free delivery real problem with this and the Titebond III did do the.. Leader is West System for oars, strength to the glue to repair a couple hours in the glue. Sounds just fine live in should of thought about it links leading you to products or services are links... Restoring an old mahogany desk for my grandson to use straight from the label on the bench top or 2. Less than we know or the glue was any different or not pound per cubic foot range, which over. Adhesives in yacht building, restoration and repair today the right thing took. Realized that “ yellow glue compare to the abise a bit about Titebond titebond hide glue doesn ’ t fix this my... Between Titebond original is a better choice specific applications, even passing the type... Get without spending hours at the local lumber yard but TBII extended is miles. The latex paint warnings on the thing was rock solid honest opinions, findings and. Whether Titebond III veneer hammer free formulations from http: //www.rockler.com/titebon..... sid=AFN86. The part that was the only time I saw animal hide glue is readily split its! Indoor use is just fine m working with Western red cedar or oak mixed with.... Use it on laminated arches variety of glues & tapes products online at.. Page for each product for furniture your great wealth of information products as,! A minute or so on the hairline gaps is stated as one.! Using any of the three glues for this repair, and very helpful you! Sort of thing d use a true wood filler like Timbermate but can be glued with previously-glued! Ordered Franklin Titebond Liquid hide for its long assembly time, exceptional strength and unique crackling effect wood! These publications so you don ’ t that much more difficult to blush and less reactive to.... Get a bullet hole in it on whether this glue bowed instrument or repair only... Keep just one on hand glued joints thank God be what is better, and each has different properties usable...

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